Tuesday, November 09, 2004

Impeachment?

I got an e-mail from ImpeachBush.org today. They made the points that we've all been making. What do you think folks? Do you think enough of us are mad enough to give it a go?

Personally, I'm all for another march on Washington . . . during the inauguration. Now wouldn't that be the hotness?! All us crazy left wingers there to protest! I think we may have something here! Spread the word!!

81 Comments:

At 9:17 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ridiculous liberal sour grapes. I would call ypou an asshole, but that would only dignify your junk prose.

 
At 10:12 PM, Blogger Dave Foster said...

I am ready,we need to get this dictator out of office.

 
At 11:42 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 11:43 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

"get this dictator out of office"? What a brain dead thing to say! You know this won't happen. Go to your sit ins and march your brains out, It won't take long.
Liberalism is soooooo shallow. It's just easy to accept everything and stand for nothing.

 
At 1:53 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Actually, us liberals do stand for something. We stand for the acceptance of all people in the face of this hegemonic capitalistic, eurocentric, patriarchal, heterosexist, classist power structure of the current administration. We stand for the valuing of everyone, be they Iraqi, Afghani, black, brown, gay, muslim, atheist, whatever.

What I don't stand for is the senseless killing of US troops in a war they don't know why they are fighting, or the death of countless Iraqi civilians and soldiers who don't want us in their country. I don't stand for discriminating against people who only want the right to visit whoever they love in the hospital.

I stand for all of humanity, however it presents itself.

 
At 4:57 AM, Blogger Charlie said...

Two reasons why a Bush victory is a good thing for all of us.
Where the response of Old Europe and the UN to Saddam Hussein was moral vacillation, only a Republican administration was willing to do what had to be done.
Almost as important George Bush can act as a bulwark against the corrosive influence of European liberalism.

 
At 5:19 AM, Blogger Rob said...

Anonymous said: "What I don't stand for is the senseless killing of US troops in a war they don't know why they are fighting."

Maybe they do understand why they are fighting but you don't. Are you merely projecting your views on troops?

 
At 6:52 AM, Blogger Jill in DC said...

I'm not exactly sure why the US is over in Iraq killing innocent people while getting killed ourselves either. This issue is of major concern and it deserves much discussion but I'm afraid that as long as the US continues to put all it's focus overseas, our domestic issues are going to go through the roof! One issue I am particularly concerned about, being a young professional, is the affordability of health care. Costs are skyrocketing and as long as our system keeps going as it is, fewer and fewer people will have coverage. Bush's plan doesn't make me feel much better. Any ideas out ther?

 
At 8:52 AM, Blogger darkclaymore said...

I love the rhetoric of the Republican Party, after 120 years it hasnt changed. Take for instance what neocons say about gays, go back 50 years and replace gay with black, now go back another 50 years and replace black with jew. Surprise surprise the writing is all the same except for those words, nothing ever changes for racists just the group they target. Even the way they talk about us liberals, go back 50 years and replace liberal with communist, now another 50 and replace communist with anarchist, pretty soon we'll see a rebirth of the House UnAmerican Activities comittee and Tom DeLay will be asking Puff Daddy if he has or ever had contact with liberals or is a liberal himself, nothing ever changes with these poor souls.

 
At 9:18 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Get over it. Your party lost. Now do what John Kerry suggests. Work together to make this a better country.

 
At 10:25 AM, Blogger The Lost Soul said...

Bush has done so many good things for America AND the world. He has over-thrown a cruel dictator who was being a threat to his people and to many of the surrounding countries as well as the USA. Though I have to admit, the American forces shouldn't have stayed this long and maybe they should have planned out what to do when Saddam Hussain is out of power rather than leaving their thinking to the last minute. This has caused Iraq to fall into an unstable country. I have yet to make a decision on Bush's regime.

 
At 11:11 AM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

sour said "Bush has done so many good things for America AND the world. He has over-thrown a cruel dictator who was being a threat to his people and to many of the surrounding countries as well as the USA"


Ok, great. Now who's next?? Saudi Arabia because of human rights violations? Nope, we need the oil. Ok, well how about China with human rights violations? No, look at all the products we get so cheap from them. How about N. Korea?? Naw, they actually HAVE Nuclear weapons(did you know our pres cannot say nuclear??sad).

Fact of the matter is there are MANY cruel dictators that even the US installed, so dont get all moral on us and say this war is about democracy. We know better.

(I'm not pissed that my guy lost the election. I'm pissed that I dont own US:HAL stock)

 
At 11:19 AM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

joeypier said "Liberalism is soooooo shallow. It's just easy to accept everything and stand for nothing."


Don't under estimate the ability of the LEFT to be as narrow minded as yourself.

 
At 1:51 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

There is a good case to impeach Bush. Not just for lying.

The US congress voted after WWII to ratify the Geneva Conventions, constitutionaly making them the "supreme law of the land". He has clearly and openly violeted the conventions.

 
At 4:24 PM, Blogger InspectorCliche said...

I wish we could talk about our commonalities and have a non-biased dialogue (where we listen to one another and consider each point of view before blurting out the hard line of one party or another).

We (the people) need to come together accepting different points of view with respect rather than waging war or feeling defeated if/when we don't get our way in the national election.

At the end of the day, democracy protects us all from our greatest foe (ourselves). The wisdom of the ages made it into the pages of our declaration of independence - we can all be thankful for that!

Over time, our democracy may sway from one extreme (Conservatism) to anther (liberalism), - but, from a distance one can appreciate the fact that a power greater than ourselves has and is navigating this great nation through the perils of time.

Our job is to follow the "better angels of our nature" and participate in the process - by getting involved, and by all means placing our vote.

Once we have participated in the process to the best of our individual abilities, we can accept the results with faith that this great country may be swaying away from the direction we think is right, but ultimately it will correct itsself (if, in fact, we are correct in our thinking).

We (the people) have more in common than we have different - on any given issue, 2 individuals from the same party will tend to disagree on the details, but overall we share the same quest.

Our common quest is to enjoy our individual pursuits of happiness and ensure (as best we can) that future generations enjoy that same freedom.

We all enjoy living in the best form of government known to mankind (in spite of it's inherent flaws). None of us are (or ever will be) perfect - therefore, I believe we cannot expect perfection out of our political process. However, we can appreciate the fact that, from a distance, our form of government has navigated (thus far) successfully through the test of time.

Let's all unite and seek an honest dialogue with as little "politics" as possible. We "the people" are still blessed to live in the United States of America!

 
At 4:33 PM, Blogger bigun said...

I have never heard so much hate speech in my life.
What hypocrits!

 
At 7:18 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

While a march will get some attention, more is needed to change how laws are enforced. Bush won in 2000 and this year using the same strategy, through the Republican Secretary of State, and more. He also has "control" of everyone who works in any government agency and makes it known that he rewards those who are loyal to him - and what happens to the others? It's alarming how many have quit or left his cabinet - a huge red flag. I can imagine if your opinion differs from his, then you're not loyal? The FBI should investigate, but who is initiating this process? The book, 9/11 Commission Report, shows enough to impeach him - but no one is doing anything and Bush is re-elected..... 4 more years? ugh!

 
At 7:57 PM, Blogger Rob said...

What exactly are the impeachable offenses? Don't just go generic here.

 
At 8:38 PM, Blogger Megan said...

"It's alarming how many have quit or left his cabinet - a huge red flag."

First and foremost, the vast majority of the population rewards loyalty. It's kind of the way things work. You know...how you make friends and all that. You learn it early. And as far as people quitting or leaving...at least they didn't just die or off themselves unexpectedly like they did in Clinton's administration. Just an observation.

 
At 9:50 PM, Blogger PuzzledPatriot said...

At 4:57 AM, Charlie said...
Two reasons why a Bush victory is a good thing for all of us.
Where the response of Old Europe and the UN to Saddam Hussein was moral vacillation, only a Republican administration was willing to do what had to be done.
Almost as important George Bush can act as a bulwark against the corrosive influence of European liberalism.

Charlie, I really wish I could believe what you say.
I agree Saddam was bad and the world is a better place without him. I just can't bring myself to believe that was Bush's motivation. Bush vacillated himself on what the reason for the invasion was. He indicated to the whole world that we had evidence Saddam had forbidden weapons. Sure, he mumbled some words about deposing a dictator and other factors, but the weapons we had "evidence" for was his main reason. So we look the world in the eye and "*#$! you, we're doing this anyway because it's the right thing to do." Now we're there, inspectors have free reign. Where are the weapons? But the emphasis has shifted away from this. If you can explain why Bush stopped talking about this "evidence" (for some legitimate reason), then maybe I could consider believing you.

But there even more inconsistencies between Bush's actions and the motives you impute to him. For instance, why was the Oil Ministry the only facility that was secured in the immediate aftermath of the invasion. Why were troops sent in sufficient numbers to win the war, but not to police the state and keep the peace? Why was Halliburton given a $7 billion contract without seeing if any other company could do it cheaper? Why did it take so long to get infrastructure restored? Most importantly, why are Bush and Cheney continuing to _imply_ Iraq had illegal weapons and ties to Al Qaeda? They're not actually saying those things, not since the official reports came back that those are false. But Bush and Cheney are deliberately misleading the country with their language. (The most infuriating thing is that it's working.) Bush even denied saying that he wasn't worried about Osama bin Laden. I'm pretty sure I saw the first time on the news, and I certainly saw it on the Daily Show when they re-aired the footage. Repeatedly.

Don't just write me off as a furious liberal. I'm a furious thinker, that's all. I actually was hesitantly supportive of the Iraq invasion when I believed the propaganda about illegal weapons and ties to Al Qaeda. But the evidence hasn't materialized.

Oh, and on impeachment issues, I believe Cheney is still in violation of "Conflict of Interest" rules regarding delayed compensation from his time at Halliburton. This, I think, is extremely impeachable.

 
At 10:51 PM, Blogger kian said...

Don't you know that too much MTV will rot your brain? Oh, I'm sorry ... I was under the impression that you might have one.

 
At 11:01 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

Jill in D.C. "Health care. Costs are skyrocketing...any ideas?"
I've been without health insurance for 2 years now so, I have thought some about this. I think the most basic reason for the high cost is the idea of insurance itself. You have 3 entities in 1 transaction. Doctor, patient and the IC (insurance carrier). The Doc knows he will get paid for most of what he does. The patient will trust and go along with what ever the Doc orders. The patient does not care how much it cost because the IC is paying for it. The patient has no incentive to negotiate a better price or question the need for the service that the Doc is performing because the IC is paying for it. Added to the problem is that much of the premiums are not paid for by the patient. They are often paid by an employer so, the patient is just the irresponsible consumer! The system is inflationary and attracts various opportunist such as Lawyers. Is this all going to change? Not likely so, what can you do to help yourself? I have been saving and have stashed away the monthly premium and have about $30K for my medical care so far. That won't go to far should I get sick anytime soon so I'm looking into asset protection in the mean time so I won't loose what I have in order to qualify for Medicare. I'm also registering for my VA benefits but not everyone can do that. I guess I'd have to say that medical saving plans are a good idea because I'm already doing it.
Another idea that I have is complete regulation of the entire medical industry including suppliers, landlords, salaries, building permits, transportation of people and supplies and any and everything that effects the cost of healthcare including limiting court awards severly. Do I think this will happen? Not a chance. Humanity is way to selfish to sacrifice anything for the betterment of all of us.

 
At 4:05 AM, Blogger thatemailname said...

If you are a Dem who is still in denial over the election, I have three little words for you that I *know* you'll understand: Get .. over .. it!

But seriously - the sooner you get over it, the better off you'll be. Denial prevents you from dealing with the real problem - this Presidential election was, much more than so than previous recent ones, nothing more than a referendum on the incumbent - John Kerry and the Democratic party made it so.

And oh yeah, be sure to visit my infant (not "infantile") blog, "Grows On Trees":

http://growsontress.blogspot.com

 
At 5:56 AM, Blogger Charlie said...

PuzzledPatriot- Charlie, I really wish I could believe what you say.

You can believe what I say. Your analysis is based on history,
And hind sight is a wonderful thing, but you will find that every Western intelligent service including France were sure he had WMD, after all he used them in Halladja killing thousands of men women and children. You are skeptical of Bush’s motivation, if you use the oil argument America could have bought up plenty of oil with the money saved by not invading Iraq, the securing of the oil facilities and preventing sabotage is only common sense after all Iraq needs oil to run its economy. I am not saying everything has gone to plan far from it huge cock-ups always occur in these events. He should have been deposed 12 years ago in my view. Winston Churchill made many mistakes costing many lives in the process, but he was regarded kindly by history, because he was right and he took risks.
We have freedom of speech we can discuss these issues, many in the Arab world; in fact all of the Arab world cannot herein lies the problem.
You say you are a furious liberal. I encourage you to take note of the happenings in Holland the most liberal of countries, in the last two weeks a film director has been shot six times and had his throat cut, a message from the Koran attached to his chest with a knife. Mosques have been bombed, shootouts using grenades by Islamic militants against the police.
Now right wing political parties are springing up calling for the repatriation of immigrants and the Prime Minister was on TV calling for calm. THIS IN HOLLAND.

 
At 7:18 AM, Blogger Jill in DC said...

JoeyPier
You have some great thoughts and insight as to why our health care system is the way it is today. It is true that as long as patients themselves aren't paying for treatment, they will be irresponsible consumers.

I work for a movement called Your American Health Care Campaign. It is a grass roots effort aimed at changing the health care system and making coverage affordable for people like you and me who don't have coverage through our employers. I would love to hear your thoughts on the issues. The website for the campaign is www.yourahcc.org

I'm still a little new to the world of blogging but I'm hoping to get a blog started on the site so people can share ideas with us and one another.

 
At 10:37 AM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

stevesnotblogger said...
"Don't under estimate the ability of the LEFT to be as narrow minded as yourself".
This is an example of the shallowness that I was talking about. Don't have much substance so make personal attacks! That's what people do when thier view point is supported more by emotion than factual thinking.

 
At 11:12 AM, Blogger The Lost Soul said...

stevesnotblogger: Fact of the matter is there are MANY cruel dictators that even the US installed, so dont get all moral on us and say this war is about democracy. We know better.

I never said this war was about democracy and I never said that Saddam Hussain was the only cruel dictator. And I know the USA is oil-crazy.. I was just stating my opinion, we don't have to get into a heated debate over it.

 
At 12:37 PM, Blogger Brian said...

With the growing sentiment of this concept, I started a site http://www.thatsitimmovingtocanada.com.

If you support the concept, let's hear it. If you think the idea is crazy, I'd really be curious know why you voted for Bush.

 
At 2:22 PM, Blogger Lisa said...

Honestly, I voted for Kerry and I think you're off the wall with your suggestion. Impeach Bush? You've got to be kidding. The man was elected fair and square this time around. He may have not done the best job (at least in my eyes) but it looks like the American people have spoken. How about of wasting your energy in a failing scheme, you get out there and find a way to change things, instead?

 
At 2:29 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Oh goodess, what are we gonna do with you liberals? I mean, honestly - give up! You lost! Very badly...and you wanna know why? Kerry is a pansie ass pussy!! You want to have a pussy as a Commander and Chief!?!?! If you do ya better get your brain checked! Seriously, here's the deal with Kerry - he has no problem at all killing unborn babies, however, he, and the rest of you weenies, are afraid to send a few grown men off to war. These men are VOLUNTEERS! They don't have to fight for their country, they choose to. This is because they know it is for our own good and the good of our country! We are just protecting ourselves, and our future generations. You may call that selfish, but what would you call it when there are thousands of women in this country using abortion as birth control??? That is the MOST selfish thing a woman can do! And they say that it's a woman's choice because it is their body. I say take responsibility for your actions you sluts! Having a baby sucked out of you and chopped into pieces is an easy way out!! Any politician that thinks that this is okay is no better than Hitler.

 
At 3:57 PM, Blogger Webbahs Blog said...

Democrats, it's time to wake up and grab the bull by the horns. The Republican spin machine is already at work spreading the word that democrats have "less or no values" than they do.

We all know that Democrats have always been the leader of family values. Republicans have values as long as money is not involved. A perfect example is their 7 year block of granting the "minimum wage workers" a pay raise. I believe everyone deserves a raise, even a modest cost of living raise. The Republicans don't because the only ones that matter to them are big corporations. They deny hard working Americans "unemployment extensions" in certain times of economic hardship time after time.


59 million Americans were duped by the Republican greed machine. Weather gays can marry or not won't put food on your table, provide your family with health care or educate your children.

 
At 3:57 PM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

JoeyPier said...
stevesnotblogger said...
"Don't under estimate the ability of the LEFT to be as narrow minded as yourself".


This is an example of the shallowness that I was talking about. Don't have much substance so make personal attacks! That's what people do when thier view point is supported more by emotion than factual thinking.


Please read the other posts from the OTHER side of this. I haven't heard the word PUSSY thrown around as much as I have since grade school. Talk about shallow.

MY point being that "the LEFT" can be and IS as narrow minded in thought as "the RIGHT". Saying liberals dont stand for any one thing is incorrect, but we ARE here to debate.
"WHat are you rebelling against?"

"What do ya got?"

 
At 4:33 PM, Blogger PuzzledPatriot said...

Charlie - You can believe what I say. Your analysis is based on history,
And hind sight is a wonderful thing, but you will find that every Western intelligent service including France were sure he had WMD...

Charlie, could give me some sources on this? My memory is that Bush and Powell kept telling the UN they had uncontrovertible proof of illegal weapons in Iraq, but that they couldn't share it or the source because doing so would jeopardize the safety of their source. I'd love to be wrong.

Your arguments about the importance of oil to the economy of Iraq make sense, but they are not sufficient to win me over yet. Lots of other things are important, like electricity and water. I'd say these are more important to the people and the economy, especially short term. My current understanding is that the failure to secure the utilities was not simply "a huge cock up" but a deliberate oversight. It would be one thing had the troops been ordered to do something but screwed up. My understanding is that they were only ordered to secure oil facilities. This is a vastly different matter, and again, I'd love to be proved wrong.

Casting even more suspicion over the administration are the long-standing ties to the oil industry (in particular Halliburton and Enron). This suspicion is compounded by many things Bush has done domestically: letting Enron help write energy policy, and appointing former industry lobbyists to the EPA to "regulate" their former bosses, to name just two.

Left/right is not an issue to me. I'm frighteningly liberal on some issues, frighteningly conservative on others. I wanted Clinton impeached over the Chinese campaign donations. I look at the last 4 years of Bush, and most of what I see is short-sighted greed, deception, and corporate wellfare. I would really like to be wrong about all of this. It's going to take some powerful, rational persuasion to bring me to this point of view, but I'm always willing to listen.

 
At 4:36 PM, Blogger Webbahs Blog said...

sour said "Bush has done so many good things for America AND the world. He has over-thrown a cruel dictator who was being a threat to his people and to many of the surrounding countries as well as the USA"

Sorry, I just had to comment on this:
If 9/11 did not happen would we be in Iraq? Most likely we would treat it like China and N. Korea.

We now know that Sadamm did not have the WMD's but was waiting until the sanctions were lifted to resume his WMD program, yet Republican talking heads tell me that sanctions do not work. So my questions is, "then why did Sadamm have to wait until they were lifted to resume his WMD program"?


People, Read between the lines. Not the spin. When you hear a talking head speak try and figure out what their motives are.

Someone wrote in about rising health care costs. Do you know why they are so high? It's because of one simple fundamental value that has all but evaporated from our country. That value is "to do the right thing no matter what the consequences". We see it all the time in everyday life, the mechanic rips you off, the doctor bills for services not rendered, the Senate caters to lobbyists and special interest. It's not that corporations can't afford to pay for health care, it's that they are required to increase profits quarter after quarter, wall street demands it and wall street is mostly republican. Corporations must find creative ways to please wall street and one way is to hire temporary workers, out source or cut benefits. It's this conserative movement to get as wealthy as possible that stretches from Wall Street to the White House that is what is wrong with our country.

If the leadership of the this country whether it be political or corporate adopts a "do the right thing" attitude, instead of an "ownership" society or a "me" society the country will follow suit.

 
At 5:01 PM, Blogger Irish Insight said...

Anonymous said:
Actually, us liberals do stand for something. We stand for the acceptance of all people in the face of this hegemonic capitalistic, eurocentric, patriarchal, heterosexist, classist power structure of the current administration. We stand for the valuing of everyone, be they Iraqi, Afghani, black, brown, gay, muslim, atheist, whatever.

-Wait, you mean that you stand for the valueing of liberals in those ethnic/religious groups. Where does it way you support Christians, americans?? It doesn't say that because you liberals are anti-american. I once heard someone say "What is good for America is bad for the Democrats" I believe that this point is proven each and every day. Do you understand that it is you people who are dividing the country. All of you Bush-haters are pissing everybody off. Seriously, I dont think that Bush would have won it you haters weren't so vocal. If just makes you all cringe to come to the realization that you are the minority. It just doesnt seem so because the bulk of the left fringe is extremely vocal and obnoxious. And why can't you realize that the election was not rigged? Do you think that if John Kerry would have won, we would be out there saying "There were democrats trying to keep religous white people away from the polls" No, because we arent conspiricy theorists. Please just either learn to live with the next four years, or move to Canada. Seriously, I dont think that anyone would mind.

 
At 5:03 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Wow, and I thought Canada had issues.

 
At 6:50 PM, Blogger pt said...

Liberals - give it up you lost. Deal with it, the people spoke.

 
At 6:50 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

Liberals - give it up you lost. Deal with it, the people spoke.

 
At 7:01 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

Anonymous said...
Wow, and I thought Canada had issues.

That's interesting that you acknowledge that Canada has issues. How can a liberal person admit that a liberal country has issues? I respectfully suggest that you are confused.

 
At 7:26 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

Oooh.. the Thousand Death War... there's a page-turner.

OIL FOR FOOD
OIL FOR FOOD
OIL FOR FOOD
MONEY FOR INFLUENCE

The U.N. sold us out, plain and simple. In doing so they broke the illusion of influence we afforded them. Why do I need to tell you it doesn't matter what other people think about you? You're LIBERALS in the United States of America for Christ' sake.

 
At 7:32 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

Well OK stevesnobloger, I should have said
Liberalism is soooooo shallow. It's just easy to accept everything.
I guess blocking oil drilling in Alaska is standing for something even though it would greatly releive our dependency on forign oil or standing for a hike in the minimum wage even though it would actually reduce entry level jobs and limit job experience opportunities. Standing in the way of tree cutting even though it effects the cost of lumber. This is the shallow thinking that I'm talking about. Not thinking issues through from cause to effect. Sorry we got off on the wrong foot. The liberals stand for nothing part was not my main intent but I see the door that was left open.

 
At 9:19 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

Liberalism: Wanting to get rid of the roaches and then wondering where all the blue-jays went.

 
At 11:06 PM, Blogger PuzzledPatriot said...

To CleverCynic:
What's the basis of your argument that the UN sold us out? My understanding was that they did not find the "evidence" of imminent threat to be compelling. Indeed, given the Duelfer report, it seems that sanctions were, in fact, working.


To JoeyPier:
About Alaskan oil drilling, the sources I've read indicate there's only about 6 months' oil supply. High-end estimates that I've found only go up to about 1.6 years' worth of oil. While you are correct, there would be many unforeseen economic benefits, there would also be many negative ecological consequences with untold ramifications for the future. Given the comparatively paltry amount of oil, this trade off is not worthwhile.

 
At 11:27 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

Puzzled Patriot: as you know Iraq has been on the to-do list for over a decade. Kerry, Liebermann, Gephardt, et al ad nauseum agreed with the data and voted for it. The U.N. Voted with us each and every time. That Saddam had weapons was the prevailing knowldedge of the day as a flat Earth was to Socrates. The two most peculiar things that happened was the U.N's first UNunanimous vote (we still got the majority) in the end, and why would Saddam continue to posture himself as if he had the weapons thus enduring "needless" sanctions on himself and the people. This has to be answered no matter what. The answer is the oil for food system that Saddam had worked out with leading members of the U.N. to the tune of 11 billion dollars. They were not about to vote against their financial interests. Saddam would sell them the oil at $10 a barrel and allow them to mark it up to value on the open market in exchange for kickbacks. This investigation will be revisited when it is complete, however the U.N. is still blocking it just as Saddam did with the investigators. All of this dissent against the government now is the only reason we're not in Sudan right now taking care of that as well. The U.N. is pathetic in my view and fails to function. It is also interesting that France is partaking in unilateral action in the Ivory coast right now and didn't bother to ask anyone... and you know what? I'm fine with that... it was their people that were hurt.

 
At 5:32 AM, Blogger Charlie said...

Clevercynic has anticipated my response to PuzzledPatriot and made some pertinent points with which I agree. The oil for food programme enabled Saddam Hussein to manipulate certain governments to his own ends; we now know why France was so against the removal of Saddam Hussein.
Anonymous said:
Actually, us liberals do stand for something. We stand for the acceptance of all people in the face of this hegemonic capitalistic, eurocentric, patriarchal, heterosexist, classist power structure of the current administration. We stand for the valuing of everyone, be they Iraqi, Afghani, black, brown, gay, muslim, atheist, whatever.
Unfortunatley Muslims and a few others don’t understand your point of view, in fact you would be crushed if they had their way. Sad but true.

 
At 7:25 AM, Blogger Russ said...

As much as I'd love to see Bush impeached, realistically it will never happen. Republicans own the majority in both the House and Senate and the Supreme court is tilted right now in Bush's favor with its prospects only looking better.

55,000,000 million of us came out to try and get rid of Bush. That's remarkable in a time of war. That's more votes than Ronald Reagan even got. Yea, Bush got a few million more, but we are also starting to hear of voting machines that somehow gave Bush more votes than he really got. I've also heard Karl Rove had some sort of interest in the voting machines somewhere. Kind of makes you wonder. Was this election somehow going to end up in Bush's favor no matter what?

 
At 2:27 PM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 2:49 PM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

At 7:32 PM, JoeyPier said...
Well OK stevesnobloger, I should have said
Liberalism is soooooo shallow. It's just easy to accept everything.
I guess blocking oil drilling in Alaska is standing for something even though it would greatly releive our dependency on forign oil or standing for a hike in the minimum wage even though it would actually reduce entry level jobs and limit job experience opportunities. Standing in the way of tree cutting even though it effects the cost of lumber. This is the shallow thinking that I'm talking about. Not thinking issues through from cause to effect. Sorry we got off on the wrong foot. The liberals stand for nothing part was not my main intent but I see the door that was left open.
*****************************************************
Ah, an issue!
Stop buying gas sucking SUV's would greatly reduce our dependecy on foreign oil. Dont buy the 300hp whatever that gets 10 miles to the gallon. Be a little responsible.....please.

About cutting trees....

I don't stand against cutting trees. I support "thinning the forrests" as it has proven to be a fire hazard not doing so.

Clear cutting sucks, period.

Go to the Pacific North west and see what clear cutting does to a mountain. It is ugly and takes several decades to regrow. But the timber companies find clear cutting a cost effective way of doing business, so what can you do.

It's not so much not thinking through as you put it, it is more thinking a different way.

Oil will run out no matter where we get it. How about COMING UP WITH A SOLUTION so when it does run out we are prepared.

 
At 11:40 PM, Blogger Roc said...

This type of conversation is subversive if not treason. What has the likes of EU or any other part of the world ever done to correct the injustice that has afflicted their part of the world. AMERICA has save the butts of every major country or goverment it the world. If they are so rightous and perfect then why are so many of their own people dying or killing themselves.
What other nation has the freedoms we do? What other nation even has a history of freedom like we do? The so-called free world owes its freedom to the blood of Americans who has died on foreign land to help that county to be free.
IF YOU DONT LIKE AMERICA take your liberal ass to the county of your choice, but DONT DISRESPECT your own.

 
At 6:40 AM, Blogger Webbahs Blog said...

"Almost as important George Bush can act as a bulwark against the corrosive influence of European liberalism."

Maybe liberalism is corrosive or maybe its not,
but I can tell you one thing Republican greed is certainly corrosive for America.

"I guess blocking oil drilling in Alaska is standing for something even though it would greatly releive our dependency on forign oil or standing for a hike in the minimum wage even though it would actually reduce entry level jobs and limit job experience opportunities. Standing in the way of tree cutting even though it effects the cost of lumber."

See how conserative views always boil down to money.

I'm willing to pay a little more for a cup of coffee or a little more at Wal-Mart if it means that the 8 million minimum wage workers get a cost of living raise. Because it's the "right thing to do". A basic fundamental, traditional value I learned early on, a value the Republican party have forgotten.

 
At 7:47 AM, Blogger Charlie said...

I'm willing to pay a little more for a cup of coffee or a little more at Wal-Mart if it means that the 8 million minimum wage workers get a cost of living raise.

You may want to do that, however I'll bet my life that the 8 million workers will not see their wages raised, it will go into increased profit margins. I've been there done that got the t shirt.

 
At 9:26 AM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

Webbah said:
See how conservative views always boil down to money.

I'm willing to pay a little more for....Because it's the "right thing to do".... A basic fundamental, traditional value....bla bla bla Bull shit!
First of all the idea of a minimum wage is not a traditional value, it's a socialist value. Put your money where your mouth is and pay a lot more so the minimum wage can be raised. If that was the case, I bet you would be doing some back peddling on the issue. Do you know why? Because when liberals find themselves having to pay for their ideas, then the money becomes considerably more important. Minimum wage is not a level of employment that is meant to be a permanent stage and it's not meant to support a family. It's an entry level so a person can develop some skills and move on up. If people stay at that economic point but choose to increase their family size then they might be just stupid and should not be rewarded by the rest of us paying more for goods and services. Harsh you say? Maybe so but if all of us understood this principle, there would be a lot less poverty.

 
At 5:00 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

I have to say I agree with joeypier's last comment. If there is any one issue that I would call my own it is education. While I spend a lot of time on here expressing my viewpoints, in real life I am much more inclined to inspire anyone who will listen to education. I think that funding for college is somehow tragically America's best kept secret right now.

The truth is, if you are working for minimum wage right now, you INVARIABLY qualify for full college funding in the form of the Pell grant that completely covers in-state tuition AND books, and also have the opportunity to accept NEED-BASED loans up to the amount of Cost of Education which includes living expenses. Those have to be paid back STARTING in 10 years, but it is extremely low interest and the government pays it that whole time.

Democrats need to understand that these are the reasons why we are the way we are. We really are OPTIMISTIC about the people, and not the government. If everyone took advantage of the system that is already in place for the purposes of bettering themselves rather than soaking the system, we wouldn't even be having this debate.

There is a place for everyone in America... just look at Borack Obama, he KNEW how to use the system to better himself and proves that it has been in place for quite some time and that racism is not the larger force of failure for minorities, and access to education is not the larger force for poor whites.

 
At 7:55 AM, Blogger RangerDrew72 said...

YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF PINKO COMMUNIST, UNAMERICAN, UNPATRIOTIC, MIS-GUIDED, UNINFORMED, IGNORANT, AND VERY DISRESPECTFUL DUDS. IF YOU HATE AMERICA SO MUCH LEAVE. IT IS SO MUCH BETTER IN CANADA, EUROPE, SOUTH AMERICA, ASIA, THE MIDDLE EAST (DEFINATELY) OR AFRICA (ANOTHER WONDERFUL PLACE). SHUT UP AND LEAVE WE WHO ARE PATRIOTIC AND AMERICAN DON'T WANT YOU HERE. MAYBE YOU SHOULD ASK US WHO HAVE SERVED, AND KNOW EXACTLY WHAT IS GOING ON INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO CNN AND ALL THE OTHER LIARS ON MAINSTREAM MEDIA. YOU PEOPLE WHO THINK YOU KNOW THE TRUTH ARE BLIND AND GUZZLE COOL AIDE LIKE WATER. I SLEEP PEACEFUL KNOWING THAT WE HAVE A PRESIDENT THAT ACTUALLY GIVES A DAMN. KERRY, A WEAK AND UNQUALIFIED LEADER DESERVED WHAT HE GOT. HE WOULD HAVE CAUSED MORE DEATH THAN WHAT HAS ALREADY HAPPENED. YOU PEOPLE WHO HAVE NEVER BEEN TO AFGHANISTAN OR IRAQ DON'T HAVE A CLUE SO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DISCUSS SOMETHING THAT YOU KNOW NOTHING ABOUT. THIS WAR IS ABOUT FREEDOM, SOMETHING YOU ALL HAVE FORGOTTEN. I HAVE SERVED IN BOTH FRONTS, I HAVE LOST MEN, BUT WE ALL FOUGHT FOR FREEDOM AND CHOSE TO DO SO NO MATTER WHAT THE COST. I WOULD DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN. DON'T TELL ME YOU SUPPORT THE TROOPS BUT NOT BUSH IT IS A CONTRADICTION OF WORDS AND I AND MANY OF MY MEN DON'T RECOGNIZE YOUR SUPPPORT. US SOLDIERS SEE ALL OF YOU AS BEING A MIRROR OF THOSE PEOPLE THAT CALLED THE VIETNAM VETERANS BABY KILLERS AND SPIT ON THEM. THAT IS WHAT YOU ALL REPRESENT TO US. WE ARE NOT BRAIN-WASHED EITHER. WE ALL VOLUNTEERED TO FIGHT MORE THAN WHAT YOU SNIVELING CRY BABIES HAVE DONE. ALL I HAVE TO SAY IS FIND OUT THE FACTS OR LEAVE AMERICA WE DON'T WANT YOU.

 
At 8:51 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said...

At 7:55 AM, RangerDrew72 said...

some really dumb things. I beleive this country was founded on the people questioning the government & not accepting everything they say as truth like sheep. If you feel you are there for freedom, good for you.

Calling people who disagree with you pinkos or whatever is your childish way of dealing with your doubt.

 
At 9:25 AM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

Rangerdrew.....all of us are what????? Dude... read the post before making broad stroke statements like that. Yelling about your contributions doesn't mean much to the listener and does nothing to educate the lost and confused left. I understand your anger but it does nothing to dislodge the misinformed. These folks think that they are well informed because they read the L.A., N.Y. times and watch CNN! You should be presenting mind changing ideas and planting seeds of reason. For example...when a lefty says, "Iraq is all about oil" counter with, "don't you think we could have bought the oil a whole lot cheaper" or with the case of Halliburton contracts, counter with "And what company would you suggest could handle the job? You'll get no answer because lefties have no solutions, just endless fabricated criticism. Listen to your lefty friends and relatives and explore what they say. Ask questions. Often, you can find holes even with subjects you know nothing about! You might be amazed how many times you will hear them say, "You know, that's a good point" or "I never thought of that!" We don't have to convince them on the spot to be sucessful. Just plant the seeds. It's far more rewarding than venting on them. These people will love you for liberating them from the bonds of a self defeating attitude. Last thing. You might want to turn off the cap lock key, it's seen as yelling!

 
At 9:39 AM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

At 9:25 AM, JoeyPier said...
For example...when a lefty says, "Iraq is all about oil" counter with, "don't you think we could have bought the oil a whole lot cheaper"


I REALLY need your help explaining this to me.

 
At 10:11 AM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

At 9:25 AM, JoeyPier said...
For example...when a lefty says, "Iraq is all about oil" counter with, "don't you think we could have bought the oil a whole lot cheaper"



"According to the Oil and Gas Journal,

Iraq contains 115 billion barrels of

proven oil reserves, the third largest in

the world (behind Saudi Arabia and

Canada)."
DOE 03/04

That speaks for itself & I didnt need to read from the NY Times.

At 9:25 AM, JoeyPier said...
or with the case of Halliburton contracts, counter with "And what company would you suggest could handle the job?


"In early January 2004, the U.S. military

announced that it was taking over fuel

distribution in Iraq from Halliburton, after

the U.S. government accused the

company of overcharging for fuel

deliveries by $61 million. Within Iraq,

gasoline is generally sold for just 5-15

cents per gallon, while Halliburton

reportedly was being paid $2.64 per

gallon to import gasoline from Kuwait."
(DOE 03/04)



hmmm, how about an honest one.

 
At 10:11 AM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 10:11 AM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 1:45 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

Stevesnotbloger said in response to me saying "We could have bought the oil cheaper than invading Iraq"

Steve says Iraq has 115 billion barrels of oil. I'm assuming he means that by multiplying 115,000,000,000 X $50.00 proves that our true motivation is to get the oil. . Let me explain. Steve's statement is comparing the total value of all the oil in Iraq today vs. the total cost of the current war up until now. It's true, the oil is worth more than what we have spent so far however, What Steve doesn't say is that it would take the U.S. 30 years to consume all of the Iraqi oil! if and I say if..... we got all our oil from Iraq.Total US daily oil use is 10.5 million barrels and of that, we were only getting 5% from Iraq. What would it cost to maintain control over Iraq for 30 years? It would be far to expensive in dollars and ways that we can't imagine.
No logical person could conclude that our leaders would go to war for such a stupid scenario as this. Besides, we don't have a history of stealing assets from other countries. We buy them. ( Oh.... that will boil the liberal blood! I can hear it now.....what about Mexico and what about the Indians) We want other countries to prosper and engage in commerce with the U.S. and other countries because it makes for a more stable earth. Try to think things through a little better.

 
At 2:28 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

This discussion really upsets me, because I would be in complete SUPPORT of taking the oil in damages, yet Bush refuses to touch it, it's one of the problems I HAVE with him! And when Kerry says that this war should have cost a billion dollars, this is EXACTLY what he means! That we should have taken the appropriate amount of oil in damages. Why won't anyone understand this? If you believe that was what it was all about, I'm afraid you never had a horse in this race to begin with, or really anyone even in the Senate for that matter. Michael Moore is NOT a democrat! You guys need to dump him or call your new faction something else!

 
At 2:34 PM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

You are missing my point Joey. Irag being the 3rd largest producer of oil is very attractive to many interests here in the US & the world(Russia & France had of course big stakes in Irag prior to the war, hence they DID NOT want to go to war). Look at the other two countries on the list. Both are our allies. The 3rd(Irag) WAS run by a dictator who wasn't playing nice. Get rid of the dictator & we now have a clear path for OUR interests to get a foothold in Iraq.

Fuzzy math skills aside, consider how we got a foothold in the region & you will come to understand why we are disliked so much.

 
At 2:38 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

Clevercynic.... I was for having the war paid for from Iraqi oil also. Made perfect sense to me however, President Bush wanted to stop the critics from saying we went there for the oil but the dumb asses are saying it anyhow!

 
At 2:58 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

Steve, the national economy is 2nd at the top of the list of "The National Interest" and even the democrats agree that military action is sanctioned with respect to it.

It's not like you're completely off the wall, certainly Saddam's biggest mistake was being an A-hole IN a valuable place that is annexed to every place we may need to be if this terrorism thing gets very rowdy. Give Bush some damn credit for strategy, he's charged with leading this country after all, and at the end of the day, whatever I wish to cry about, I completely expect my LEADER to look out for MY interest as we entrust them to do.

 
At 3:09 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 3:16 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

Stevesnotbloger said "Fuzzy math skills aside"
My fuzzy math or yours? If your talking about mine, show me where I'm wrong. Frankly, all you said was that Iraq has 115 billion barrels of oil. That's a fact but it's a huge stretch of the imagination to go from there to "we are in Iraq for the oil"
President Bush purposefully made a point to have you and I pay for this war just to prove the point that this is not about oil.
Also, I don't care if we are liked or not. Just doesn't matter. They all will still buy our goods and we will buy theirs. OOps.. seems that we're not buying French goods to the tune of 1 billion dollars this year. Maybe they better decide to like us more!

 
At 3:24 PM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

Its more the 3rd largest producer of oil Joey.

 
At 3:27 PM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

If you cant connect the dots I'm afraid you might be too asinine to "discuss" this further.

 
At 4:06 PM, Blogger JoeyPier said...

At 3:27 PM, stevesnotblogger said...
If you cant connect the dots I'm afraid you might be too asinine to "discuss" this further.

Ladies and Gentlemen,
As you can see a liberal has once again proven me correct! I have taught those who know me that a liberal, when confronted with facts and truth, will always, and without fail, resort to personal attacks rather than exercising rational thinking. Test this out with the liberals in your life.

 
At 8:13 PM, Blogger Dhar said...

Here for the first time. Great blog.

Cheers,

 
At 9:47 AM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 11:44 AM, Blogger stevesnotblogger said...

Ah joey,

look up at the top of the page when you said

"Liberalism is soooooo shallow. It's just easy to accept everything and stand for nothing."

It seems very easy for you to lump everyone into either left or right. I guess that makes it easy for you not to think about something that might not be black or white. It's ok. You can call me liberal thats fine. You might be surprised that my views transend "labels".

You can look at an issue and spin it whatever way you want. I am not here to change your view. It is important for people to understand how this country was formed & what it means to be patriotic. It is ok to questions the goverment. It is ok to seek the truth & not have it spoon fed to you. (can we not agree with this??)
(as far as the first post)
People will protest the inauguration. People will protest the protesters. Life will go on & we dont need to agree on anything. I beleive it is a good thing that politics can strike a chord in people who might seem rational other wise.

 
At 12:28 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

We categorize everything, from planets to bacteria. It's just a method by which we make knowledge more manageable and establish relationships. While applying a label to one person may have flaws, the labels themselves have meaning and point to a variety of predictable viewpoints. That there is one or two things you may not be sold on just makes you a Liberal with some caveats, as I am a conservative with caveats as well, but clearly a conservative overall.

In either case, Liberals have more to gain by shedding the label, and that should be revisited as to why by the next election for the purposes of your strategy. Socialists have their own party which appears to have no support at all because most of them shoe-horn themselves into the democratic party, which I don't believe was originally liberal at all, the image has only been overtaken by them. Michael Moore is NOT a democrat, they just thought he might be useful in affecting the common image of the sitting president and erred by not denouncing his tactics.

 
At 1:52 PM, Blogger bar5608 said...

Well, Gentlemen, don't blame me for what I am about to say. You drove me to it. I am new at this blogging business, but I'm giving it a try.
First off, in referance to the Screaming of RagerDrew72, I do not believe you are, or were, fighting in Iraq for Patriotic reasons. It appears to me you went there because you like that sort of thing. Well, don't feel too bad about that. Humans have a slight kink in the brain department that causes them to fight often, and sometimes well. But screaming at us Liberals doesn't get the job done. And I'd appreciate it if you would stop calling me names like Pinko-Communist and al that sort of rot. I can assure you I am as patriotic as anyone you know, and I am not about to leave this country to you right wing Oil merchants.

 
At 5:01 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

We're not fighting it for patriotic reasons. We're fighting it for humanitarian reasons, and are only patriotic about it (slightly most of us). Originally it was for self-defense and humanitarian reasons, but we're fine with what's left. Humanitarian not only for short term stopping of torture and oppression, but to ease the middle east into equal participation in the future economy based on free-trade... its going to be quite the shit-storm when that oil runs out and they have nothing else to survive on.

 
At 7:21 AM, Blogger Honsey3 said...

In my opinion - you wanted to impeach a man who lied about a blow job. There's a man in office who lied about WMD's - no one died as a result of a little white lie regarding a blow job...

who should be impeached again?

 
At 1:27 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

Honey, we DID impeach Clinton. He purgured himself and while the original offense is debateable, you wouldn't want to think they were above the law of OUR land. Bush may have been wrong but he didnt' LIE anymore than Socrates lied about a Flat Earth. You can't lie just by saying "yeah that's what we got too".

 
At 9:13 PM, Blogger Spencer said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

 
At 9:19 PM, Blogger Spencer said...

"Do you think enough of us are mad enough to give it a go?" That's a suspiciously European way of expression. Perhaps that's why your comments seemed out of place to me. You obviously don't know much about the Republic that we live in here in America.

 
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