Friday, November 12, 2004

On an artistic note : p2p-politics.org

This was huge before the election but I think the idea can live on especially to continue the great political dialog that has enveloped this country.
Check it out and can the Republicans please contribute something.
Lets make sure we all do and build on the past to make a better and more creative future.

20 Comments:

At 2:03 PM, Blogger Brian Burkett said...

No offense, but I can't see many Republicans wanting to post on a blog that is not only slanted totally to the left, but that is basically hostile to the right or even to the middle. I think that both sides have much to offer each other, but not so long as there is hate on either side.

Kerry's top lawyers admitted that more Americans clearly voted for Bush.

Still, many American's voted for Kerry.

Until we start seeing some shades of grey, there will be no compromise.

Just my two cents

 
At 3:13 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

This is my opinion, and as a Bush voter, it matters to you guys because it's what you're dealing with right or wrong. Listen, this election was an anomaly. Prior to this election, this was just about democrats wanting to put a little more funding into social programs than republicans want to. This election was not like that at all. There was a blurring of your side and Michael Moore pulled out of the woodwork all the socialists and hard-core liberals. No moderates would denounce any of it and you all became one in our minds. We used to be of the opinion that socialists were rare freaks, like the communists in McCarthy's day, but we realize now what a huge percentage of them there are now, and pose a real threat. As long as we perceive this, we will come out in unbelievable numbers, especially if Hillary is run. She is too famous to move to the center in 4 years, and she is no Bill. You MUST become the democrats we thought you were and not be perceived as the enemy to the American Way and all that has preserved our world status and innovation. Over the last few years you began telling us you didn't think that was such a good thing, so there is no way in hell you'll get to lead this country's GDP and business growth and viability in the world when you don't root for it with all your hearts. This is the crux of why your patriotism has been called into question. Dissent has it's own nobility, but you pretty much give up the right to run this country when you do it.

 
At 3:42 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

Wait..I'm not done.

I didn't take an exit poll, but of the choices given, I probably would have picked moral values too in the heat of the moment, and I'm Agnostic. For me it would have been the morality of loving and supporting your country vs. the immorality of bashing it at every turn. So don't read too much into the moral values thing. I hear the wheels turning and can tell you're looking to do to the evangelicals what you did with the media-impressionable kids.

As far as subtle and not so subtle references to intellect as a function of ideology, you're going to have to lose that as well. For starters, yes of course it is alienating in its own way, but it's also intellectually dishonest with respect to your overall platform. The kids and the African Americans were your best groups, yet you claim that lack of education is one of your salient problems to rectify. You'll probably keep the blacks, but youth is a temporary condition that maturity rectifies, so you'll be preaching to a crowd shift in 4 years. Even the kids that voted republican have no clue about policy and the best way to run a country, more likely just influenced by their parents affiliation or MTv or their humanities professors. In any case they have ALL been on the receiving end of the system and are not in a position to offer anything to the system, it's not theirs to give. Never before have I seen so many college girls crying at the prospect of losing the ability to abort children, as if they're all certain they're going to be raped... rather I'm sure it's not about that at all, they know what kind of activity they are engaged in and it might prove handy. This is all combined in moral values as well... we can't even believe you'd ask for this from where we are sitting. It's a silly trick of medical science that's treated like a boob job. It's also intellectually dishonest to say that republicans are voting for money, as it is clear that the democrats are doing the same thing... the difference is one is voting to keep theirs and the other is voting to take it from them. Class warfare is a loser, not all of us feel like a worthless piece of crap when a Ferrari blows by. We'd rather know it's possible for us too and is the very idea of the American Dream. Find some inner piece and take some responsibility for yourselves. You cannot create more jobs by making employees more expensive. It's the stupidest platform I've ever heard, especially since outsourcing is such a problem. The headquarters don't need to be here either and at least now we get the tax revenue. Raise taxes on employers and we're all screwed.

PEOPLE! Make a couple phone calls... college is FREE if you can't afford it! Borack Obama should be telling people that it was not the stump that made the difference, it was the JOURNEY THERE!

 
At 4:06 PM, Blogger Pravin said...

WOW...am I in Wonderland? Cause that is insane!

 
At 4:08 PM, Blogger Pravin said...

Hey Brian,
p2p-politics.org is a nonpartisan website. All it asks is for supporters of each side to post video clips on the site. Your creativity is what makes it thrive, regardless of Democrat, Republican or Other. I would hope you'd be into making a video piece if you feel strongly about an issue and it would be great if you uploaded so the rest of us could see.

 
At 5:21 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

One-liners do not make viable counterpoints. They are the stuff of jokes, which is appropriate.

 
At 9:08 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

I went to the website. If it was started to be non-partisan, it certainly didn't happen. We all saw Fahrenheit 911, yes we know what can be done. SOME of us however also saw FahrenHYPE 911 too. I would recommend it, especially because you'd be surprised that the cast of testimonials is just about the same, many people pissed they were taken out of context. What really upsets me is that scene with bush calling those rich people his base. I thought that was damning at the time, but realized, as you guys MUST have with Kerry, that sometimes you have to pander. Upon seeing Fahrenhype 911, I'm really pissed at what Moore did, it was a scene for a fundraiser where presidents traditionally roast themselves as part of the sketch. I can't believe you guys believe this man. And you claim to know a lie when you hear one.

Dissent is little more than a vying for power, which must have been especially hard after the last election since we were so quiet for 4 years... in short, we just weren't the mad people, we were quite pleased. Having said that, it's hardly worth the time of a video or some artsy interpretation of logic. Perhaps when/if you guys are in control again we'll bother. We already concede that you guys are quite right-brain oriented comparatively.

 
At 10:13 AM, Blogger akathebug said...

Clever your logic escapes me, if we can call it logic. You begin by telling us this election was an anomaly, which if true, should give Democrats across the nation a great deal of rejoicing, since it means that this election was not the precursor of administrations to come but a one off; that the normal inclination of the electorate is to the Democratic Party.
Or perhaps by anomaly you wish us to see the rancor and divisiveness of this campaign as something other than what it was...the continuation of gutter politics (on both sides).
For you to write that dissent is “little more than a vying for power” begs me to ask, what were you doing during history class. The fact is your nation was born out of dissent. To carry your logic of supporting the government in time of war the founding fathers were traitors, the government of the day was the British Crown. U.S. history is full of dissent, not to mention men who championed that dissent and rode it all the way to the White House. Jackson, Lincoln, FDR, Reagan...all revered as strong presidents began their path to the Presidency from a position of opposition to the political powers and prevailing cants of the day.
In a democracy the power lies in the right of the people to express their opposition to the government. The minority opinion is not only as valid as the majority’s, its voice is what sustains a democracy. Without dissent, more to the point without the freedom of dissent, a democracy ceases to be a democracy. Oh, it may still call itself one, (and the world is full of nations that show the trappings of a pluralist society while practicing a ruthless suppression of opinion other than the orthodox), but that doesn’t make it so.
Of course I doubt any of this matters to you. I’ve been reading some of the other comments you’ve posted in the last few days and what strikes me is that in you the Left has its poster boy for the right wing lunatics that are in ascension right now.
“There is a REASON we want guns handy. Don’t pretend for a moment that we will treat you any better or give you any safer passage than any OTHER loser socialist or communist nation that would seek to take us over....” Can we assume that Canada, Japan, France, Germany, Spain, Britain, Sweden, Denmark, Australia, New Zealand...you get the idea...can expect a call once your done with Iraq.
All of these nations are socialist my friend. They all differ immensely from the U.S. in their embracing of social security and medicare programs from the cradle to the grave. You may not like it, but for many nations around the globe the role of government is not simply to get out of the way for big business.
Furthermore your boast of other nations lacking the “ingenuity, wealth, innovation” of America is so laughable it borders on the insane. You claim to be from the tech industry, if so you cannot be so myopic that you’ve failed to notice the rising tech industries in India, Singapore, South Korea, South Africa...and the effects they have had on the U.S. industry. My friend, open your eyes. These jobs are not flowing from you simply as a cost cutting measure. The fact is these nations have identified and actively pursued the tecs because they know that is where the future is. They have created environments conducive to keeping their own citizens at home while drawing the best from outside their borders. Start ups in India and Singapore are given carte blanche, with tax holidays that can only make the Republicans drool. The dollar is following not just the path of diminished costs but highest returns.
Finally to say that the U.S. is the only nation experiencing a “significant immigration crisis” is asinine. Man you got to get out of NC. Immigration is the number one issue facing most of the developed world. Aging populations in Japan, Australia, New Zealand, Canada, and all of Europe have these nations grappling with the problems of sustaining economies while maintaining their ethnic identities.
Still, I guess the one beautiful thing about isolation is you don’t need to concern yourself with what’s happening outside your own backyard.

 
At 2:06 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

Akethebug, thank you for your contribution. Yes, by anomaly I do presuppose not so much that they should be rejoicing, but that they would continue to be in the game if it were not for the gutter politics. Michael Moore brought us out in droves, as evidenced by my first vote ever at 32.

I maintain that dissent is a vying for power, AND agree with your assessment of our forefathers, I see no mutual exclusivity in your assessment. I assume you are tapping into my support for that dissent as it weighs against my disdain of the current dissent. That would be accurate. There are those that want gay marriage, those that want abortion, those that do not, those that want meat-eating stopped, those that want industry halted as to effect on environment, and those that want those manufacturing jobs that have been lost back. I could not possibly be in support of all of them. The taxation without representation and our geographic removal from the possibility of even lobbying parliament could have led nowhere else.

By general dissent, I presume that all conversations about policy would naturally include point-counterpoint conversations in determination. This form of protest however is like the word "FUCK". Yes you can, but come on. It always means that there is not enough support to bend your view into the mainstream, and even if at some point in the future that would no longer be the case, the point of this form of dissent is always going to be read with raised eyebrows and criticism. That does not mean that if it were within my power I would put a stop to it, but rather it is within me to aid these people in trying to see things from a place that could remove their angst. Of course that necessarily requires approaching my viewpoint, as I think this country is great overall even if not every policy is one I would have preferred.

My rant on socialism was spawned by some very outrageous commentary that evening, yes I even surprised myself; especially since I don't own any weapons and don't particularly advocate them. It is true that I fear socialism to my core. Your assumption that I mean to aim for European countries after Iraq is erroneous, rather I feel your reaction to Iraq is more in line for us having already attacked Denmark or some other ridiculous idea.

Surely you also must laugh when you hear some of us complain about a 5.4% unemployment rate and our hilarious notion of poverty. I think you realize that no one here has died from lack of food, shelter, or water in over 80 years. Most of our bickering stems from who has more goodies than others. How is the obesity problem faring in Europe?

Yes I do make a very strong connection between capitalism and innovation, and anyone who disagrees with that simple premise loses all credibility for further argument in my view, it is axiomatic. By innovation I'm not talking about a mousetrap or a better soap. I'm talking about electricity, microtechnology, medicines, the internet, computers in general, entertainment to a large extent, and worldwide cultural influence, which may or may not be a good thing to you, but I can assure you that the parts of that that you don't like are the same things conservatives oppose.

That people in other countries have acclimated themselves to the future we have set forth and learned our technology is not innovation in my view. I don't doubt that they are highly educated and I never said they weren't worthy. In my view globalization will be the historical de facto reason for eventual world peace. To suppose that those countries have somehow cleverly positioned themselves politically to grow jobs and keep them within their borders as compared to our administration is absurd. This is simple diffusion. We now have the technology to manage production globally so now is when it is happening, and that will inevitably be at the greatest cost to the United States. It is a foregone conclusion that the lower tech jobs that pay roughly $80 a day here can be duplicated now for roughly $3 an hour and without the benefits the democrats here have required employers pay for workers.

I would not expect from your world view and your politics to fully appreciate the level at which the U.S. pursues productivity, but like us or not, there is only one nation in the world that is worthy of awe in some form, even if it is negative in your view. If it were not for the political climate of the world right now I would be very complimentary of Europe being in a position to do so. I don't feel the people there differ much from the people in our middle towns. However, again, while its not important to me to be the ONLY superpower in the world, it is supremely obvious to me that you have all lost yours only through liberalization and socialism. It inevitably leads to complete lack of accountability and motivation. You see us as being frenzied about productivity in contrast, but we see ourselves as normal as would be expected.

I don't doubt that you all have general issues with regard to immigration and cultural identity over substantial periods of time, however, we have 4,000 new immigrants each and every day from the south border alone. It really is no comparison, and to make matters worse, our education agenda is one with which we are not allowed to embrace or favor our own culture, as it necessarily concludes somehow contempt for theirs. However, as Simon Bolivar said, and I will paraphrase of course, let the government fit the people. What America has found success with is much a matter of the type of people and the geography. He makes his argument for the socialization of his hispanic people being significantly different. This means that the higher percentage of minorities our population becomes, continuously adding to the disparity of wealth statistic nationally, the more likely and inevitable socialism will become as simply a humane thing to do to prevent disaster. However, this is a self-fulfilling prophecy and does not mean that it was always the right thing to do, and only evidences that socialism stems from undesirable things. I have read Marx as part of any healthy humanities program, and find it to be full of some cool ideas, but in practice it has led to death at the worst, and welfare states, unvelievable unemployment in comparison, loss of world status and ultimately influence and vulnerability of sovereignty. I have a sadness about Europe though I appreciate the culture. If I felt it was a good idea or progressive to end up like that I would subscribe, but as of yet I don't.

All that you have said about where the dollar leads one is true. I don't deny that capitalism will be predictable to this end, which is why I know that a democratic philosophy towards higher taxation and raising living standards for American workers would be disasterous. I foresee very large corporations moving almost completely overseas, being in position to make this expensive transition, and the small business once again reigning supreme here in the states. Conditions must be such that this is encouraged and made feasible. This time of transition will be very hard on us, but we should not be fair-weathered about it and think we can change global happenstance with false promises of hope for things that will never be. Outsourcing is here to stay unless we drive the headquarters overseas as well thus breaking the definition. We must make a mass return to education, and for that I am already getting ahead of the curve. Thanks to Bush's unprecedented funding of this, I am able to do so quite easily. One only needs to make that choice.

 
At 11:54 AM, Blogger bar5608 said...

To all who are concerned. I simply do not understand those who express so much concern about Socailism. In my view, what you see as Socialism, I see as the efforts of a Country trying to do what's right by caring for the elderly, and educating their children. I see nothing in that to cause anyone to want to do away with it. Education and Health care are two of the most vital and essential parts of any Society.
Of course there are things which should be changed about both these things. For one, Education should be fully funded by either State government, of Federal. This hodge-podge system of local controls and local funding is not working. There is a place where the Karl Marx system is needed. "To each District according to it's needs"; from each, the best educated students possible."
I've heard some people praising Bush for funding education. But it looks from here like a lot of our programs are going begging. And while I'm on the subject, I do not agree with those who claim our schools are not working. In Districts where the emphais is on getting the job done rather than on satisfying the dictates of the "test them all" faction, those students are doing just fine. And that is mostly because the teachers assign homework, and demand that is done. I believe it is beneficial to assign homework until the students are stressed to the point where they seek help from someone, and that is when they learn.
But our Health Care system is badly broken. The Doctors claim they are not being paid enough, which is obviously true in most cases, and there are far too many people who have no access to any Health care. The problem is, as I see it, there are too many Health Insurance Companys, and they just soak up too much of the money. We have to get rid of all of them, and design a Country wide, single payer Health Insurance System. Obviously it would have to be a Government function. Expand Medicare to cover everyone. Call it Socialism if you like, but by whatever name, it would sure beat the hell out of what we have now.
But let me assure you, this idea that the Democrats should just roll over and shut up for the next four years, just isn't going to happen. It appears to me that you want us liberals to support your ideas and forget ours. Don't hold your breath. Your ideas brought us a War we didn't need to fight, and to which there will be no end, and after we bring home what's left of our Military, there will still be the underlying causative factors of terrorism left to deal with. But, you're right about one thing, Globalization is probably the only way Terrorism will ever be defeated.

 
At 4:51 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

Bar5608, anyone who tells you they wouldn't want everyone to have healthcare is just plain evil. It's not really about that. Right now ALL of government, everything including military, education, all programs is 20% GDP. In 2050, medicare ALONE, with NO changes to how it is now will be by itself 25% of GDP with nothing else. Universal healthcare now would raise that figure to over 25% right NOW, and in 2050 you're looking at 70 cents on the dollar for taxation. It would be the end of the American dream, the end of our position in the world. Maybe you don't think that would be so bad, look at the trade deficit. What this means is that the socialism in Europe, though a travesty in comparison to our economy even now, it only WORKS because of us being a huge buyer in the West. Once we become like them, no one is even as strong as they are now which is pathetic. The world goes into a depression.

This is just cause and effect. Everone has their issue that they favor and think it stands alone. The world is a serpentine belt, and all of these issues is one wheel. When you adjust one, all others have to give or bend, and consequences are real across the system.

So you can continue to say, I don't care, that's what I want, but a lot of us are going to oppose it and that's just the way it is. We feel we're doing you the greater favor. People are not dying in the streets.

 
At 4:54 PM, Blogger CleverCynic said...

and by the way, socialized education is an investment and makes the economy stronger. We MAKE money on the money we put into that.

 
At 1:29 PM, Blogger jomama said...

Politics of any kind is irrelevent to a better future
as the ultimate end of all politics is twisting arms
and breaking heads.

We can do better...well, at least I'm attempting to.

 
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